I love lists and categories. I really love lists that have internal logic (i.e. a reason for the entries to be listed), but still contain absolutely bonkers entries.
Some lists are sensible, necessary, and boring. Prime numbers. Cities in Europe. Largest rivers. Some lists are lists that contain items that would not, save for the list, normally be found together. Deodands. Racehorse names.
Or "patron saint of" lists. Some of the ones online are a little anemic; they're mostly professions. A really good saint directory mixes ailments, professions, locations, troubles, etc.
Children - St NicholasWithout the adjacent names, it's a truly superb list of "things people are concerned about."
Choirboys - St Gregory the Great
Cooks - St Martha
Cracow - St Stanislaus
Dancers - St Vitus
Difficult Marriages - St Edward the Confessor
Doctors - St Luke and St Camillus de Lellis
Domestic Workers - St Zita
Drivers - St Francis of RomeDukes - St Henry
Ecology - St Francis of Assisi and Bl Kateri Tekakwitha
Or a list of lists, such as the Celestial Emporium of Benevolent Knowledge:
embalmed ones
trained ones
suckling pigs
mermaids (or sirens)
fabled ones
stray dogs
those included in this classification
those that tremble as if they were mad
innumerable ones
those drawn with a very fine camel hair brush
et cetera
those that have just broken the vase
those that from afar look like flies
Listing to Port is, almost exclusively, excellent lists.
nephelomancer
Duplicate Entries
Real-world lists often contain duplicate entries. Some things have two or more patron saints. Gods have overlapping porfolios. Racehorse names repeat.
For RPG purposes, duplication is undesirable. You want to achieve maximum conceptual density per page. A 1d10000 table of Inkeeper Quirks that goes "1. Has a red beard, 2. Has a black beard, 3. Has a brown beard..." is a waste of everyone's time.
Knowing this obvious trap, authors sometimes use synonyms or overlapping concepts to fill in a table. Let's have gods of Arrows, Archery, Bows, Bowstrings, Fletchers, etc...
Divine Domains
I'm trying to work on a Table of d100 Domains for small gods. It's surprisingly tricky work.
Has to be setting agnostic.
I've settled on a generic fantasy medieval baseline for the Monster Overhaul, but I want to avoid giving the GM a nasty surprise by springing the existence of Elves or The Western Continent on them when they were least expecting it. The domains have to be tolerably neutral; things that exist in most societies and settings. A good systemless table should compliment a setting, not dictate it.
Has to be worth invoking.
The God of Wax Seals might exist, and there are circumstances where invoking it might be useful, but it feels too specific. Domains should be broad, but not too broad.
Has to feel true.
I like a joke as much as anyone, but the temptation to include Anoia, Goddess of Things That Get Stuck In Drawers in a list of otherwise sensible gods, should be avoided. History is often a bit ridiculous, but divine figures exist for a reason. Having a d20 table of Ridiculously Specific Domains is fine, but I'd like to keep it separate.
Given the restrictions above, most pantheons boil down to a handful of overlapping concepts. The list hovers currently hovers around 80 domains. Sometimes it gets up to 90, then ruthlessly pruned back down as overlapping concepts and potential duplicates are eliminated.
Research
Most of the research on this topic is too boring to list, even for this blog. But some of it is RPG-adjacent.
Petty Gods is, as the name suggests, an RPG book of minor gods. It was a years-long turbulent collaborative project and pretty much everyone who was anyone in the OSR scene between 2010 and 2015 got to put in an entry or some art. The revised and expanded edition spans 396 pages. That's probably too many.
There are many issues with collaborative community projects. The tone is all over the place. The introductory essays tend to sprawl in a very late-AD&D way (thirty words when one will do, setting concepts introduced and (of course) ignored by later writers, a sense that the target audience is bearded dudes from the midwest, etc.)
Creating Petty Gods took an enormous amount of work, but work isn't intrinsically valuable. Nobody gets points for effort. Chopping down a tree with a herring is impressive... but if your goal was to simply chop down a tree, you've chosen the wrong tool.
On the other hand, it perfectly captures the feel of books from that era. Monumental, full of ideas, but designed to be read, not used. The sort of thing that cropped up in Dungeon articles, amused the readers, and then faded into memory without ever seeing a gaming table. It's simultaneously perfect and deeply frustrating.
On the other other hand, the PDF is free, so I've got no grounds to complain.
I suspect part of the reason it's not constantly referenced is that it has relatively few utilization tools. The options are:
- read the book, find a god you like, and use it in your game.
- decide you need a god of X, go to the Alphabetical Index of Gods (by Name) on pp. 365-373, read the entire list to see if there's a domain that matches your needs, then go to that entry, read it, and potentially use it in your games.
- open a page at random, stab down your finger, and hope for the best.
There's no "d100 Minor Gods" table with page # references. (Although, since there are 326 gods, some modified roll would be needed.) No "Solve My Problems" divine flowchart.
And, crucially, no Alphabetical Index of Gods (by Domain).
If such an index were made, another problem with community projects would emerge: duplicated entries. Gods overlap. This is absolutely fine and historically accurate, but it's a waste in an RPG book. How many Gods of Madness does any game need? Which entry is best?
The list of domains does provide a very interesting insight into what the various authors thought was interesting; a sort of wisdom-of-crowds insight. Tropes manifest. Categories emerge. Given an open-ended prompt to create a small god, without necesssarily knowing what other people were working on, what did people create?
Maria Zolotukhina
The Gods of Petty Gods, Arbitrarily Sorted
Adapted from pp. 365-373. Domains are sorted alphabetically. Page # references not provided... because I accidentally deleted the column during preparation. Sorry!
Some of the etnries were deliberatly written by the same author to overlap. These tables aren't criticism, they're just another way to look at the book.
| Setting-Specific References | |
| Yattle-Hoy (pantheon) | (cowardly gods) |
| Harbordorim | (divine imposter) |
| Sant Brothers | (in service to the Great King of Mharadwys) |
| Jhillenneth | (mother of) horrors |
| Lord Greensayne | (noble) |
| Yeolnuma | (scarab god) |
| Behzd & Vydia | (twin gods) |
| Elder Elemental | (varies) |
| Aspix | Butcher’s Alley |
| Azwa | giant stone heads in the wilderness (protector) |
| Groín | The Battered Dwarf tavern |
| Ammon Thrax | the Black Sun (former godlet) |
| Panathoth | the Circulating Library (forgotten goddess) |
| God on the Mountain | the city of Shazid Mon |
| Chel-Kloth | the Dark Lake |
| Hlo-Hlo | the Dead Man’s Diamond |
| Chaugnar Faugn | the desert plateau of Tsang |
| U’illa | the Isle of Eels* (eel god) |
| Arvirive | the keys of Law and the Wards |
| Chu-bu | the mahogany idol |
| Päkkaan | the Northern Wilderness (guardian) |
| Vodei | the seas of Aelio |
| Ykelu | the Skapti (protector; wolf god) |
First, gods whose domain is very specific, and therefore not particularly interesting to me. Using one in a campaign comes with extra baggage.
| Hah Hah This Is An RPG Book (It's A Jooooke!) | |
| Yessir | absurd orders obeyed |
| Tarvin | adolescent adventurers |
| Bubulmax | adventurers and muscles |
| Crom | barbarians and steel |
| Mico | burning oil |
| Sovereign Bastard | cretins, shit-heads, and trolls |
| Dekardinis | delvers, adventurers and ten-foot poles |
| Polly | elven barmaids and tavern workers |
| Fallen One | fallen warriors and unsung heroes |
| Tricruxia | forked tunnels |
| Lord of Mediocre Plots | hackneyed stories and unoriginal tales |
| Fubar | magical mishap and adventure |
| Their Wife | politeness and the spouses of theater directors |
| Mar Nod | rare and seemingly random fortune and misfortune during combat |
| Neub | slain novice adventurers |
| Clobrek | sundered blades, broken weapons, and fumbled attacks |
| Jexvenna | the spoilage of rations |
| Quantum Ogre | whimsy and vagary (ogre god) |
| Let's Get Drunk | |
| Manguaça | alchoholic stupor |
| Saint Biritus | drunkards |
| Yemeles | drunkards (protector) |
| Drasheeng | drunken misperception |
| Qwarghourn | miscibilities, mixology and dyspepsia |
| Tremella | pub crawling and drunken love |
| Bashiuus | wine and merriment |
| Gods Behaving Badly | |
| Baj’Lique | fertility, lasciviousness, and lechery |
| Teptrigor | prudery |
| Pherosathoola | sexual fear |
| Moss-Worn Goat | sterility |
| Luriel | temptresses and cosmetics |
| Ginny Milk Eye | termagants and viragos |
| Morbiphallugus | venereal afflictions and sexual disfunction |
| Man in the Moon, the | voyeurism and aloof observation |
| Spare Me The Madness | |
| Qu’pan | frustration and madness |
| Nug | madness |
| Yeb | madness |
| God of the Iron Urn | madness and sacrifice |
| D’in’injaht | raving, ranting, and gibberish |
| Yellow King | the madness that comes with old age |
| Time, Time, Time, Time, Time! | |
| Quachil Uttaus | age, death, and decay |
| Perichronaos | the age outer past (godlink) |
| Merramorina | the end of time |
| Termarr | the execution of time |
| Mearra (pantheon) | the inevitability of time by individual |
| Glaria | time’s inevitability |
| Oddly Specific Commerce | |
| Clerchad | commerce |
| Aurus Argentus | currency debasement |
| Ophurton | finances, investments and profits |
| Paleonumis | retired currencies |
| Blentry | tallies and commerce |
| Hackademia | |
| Glorfall | academic arguments |
| Vindico Vindicatum | appropriated credit |
| Silvarno | late submissions and missed deadlines |
| Tyop | print errrors, mistranslations, and minor heresies |
| Seshati Pyhatia | scholarly pursuits |
| Hopelessly Lost | |
| Somnau | forgotten injuries |
| Syizarkhog | forgotten knowledge |
| Lady of Tasks Forgotten | forgotten tasks |
| Old Mother | lost and orphaned children |
| Moorealeth | lost chapters |
| Boulubek | lost idols |
| Behzd | lost items |
| Zuurrt | lost lifetimes |
| Verlore | lost people and lost things |
| Undek | lost souls |
| Floog | lost things |
| Feloren | misdirection and lost travelers |
| Kwunndle | misplaced objects |
| Rosartia | things long forgotten |
| Galdu Aurkitu | things lost and found |
| Specific Creatures | |
| Audrum | carnivorous plants (plant god) |
| Karga Savasha | death birds and tengu warriors |
| Corotus Thallian | flying apes and other chimerical beasts |
| Ratacus Gant | giant rats (rat god) |
| Patchwork God | golems and constructs |
| Tallemaja | huldras and lamias |
| Rhan-Tegoth | madness, yetis, and remorhaz |
| Possimium | nocturnal creatures (possum god) |
| Qurgan Quagnar | three-legged toads |
| Attrecoppea | very small spiders |
| The One Place That Hasn't Been Corrupted By Capitalism | |
| Chicxulub | decaying orbits |
| Detriax | space junk and derelict hope |
| A Wizard Did It | |
| Naught | invisibility and invisible stalkers |
| Ywehbobbobhewy | magic mirror portals |
| Gilthigoet | magical and forgotten pools |
| Eye of Vengalate | non-lethal curses |
| Gadfiel | spells gone awry |
| Nhucyy | the proper invocation of magical words and spells |
| Atanuwé | unicorns, death magic |
| Tricksters | |
| Vydia | charlatans and over-promisers |
| Nanefesterad | false friendship |
| Philespurio | lies and irrationality |
| Mixmalix | pranks and pratfalls |
| Mystical Martan | pranksters and jerks (trickster) |
| Pelchako | tricks and revenge |
| Beng | vagabonds and con-artists |
| There's A Light (Over By The Frankenstein Place) | |
| Little Lights | small lights in underground places |
| Aglaos | torches and artificial light |
| Derral-Orth | small lights and flames |
There are plenty of other categories I could create, but some of them seemed fairly small (food, broken things), too broad (civic life, violence), or only had a few entries (cooking). Sorting the list alphabetically shows off most of the overlap anyway.
I knoew I've missed moving a few entries to the appropriate category, but blogger's interface doesn't allow for easy table edits. So it goes.
| All The Rest | |
| Haiah | “judicious retreat” |
| Xaxolx | abandoned altars (guardian) |
| Barococar | absurd architecture |
| Cuvoun le Clothier | all-natural stitching |
| Ochlos Volgus | angry mobs |
| Thwizeviblyz | baby laughter |
| Ravel/Unravel | bad fortune and good fortune |
| Otda’Btatle | battle (toad-demon-god) |
| Amber Blood Sword | battle blood-lust and feminine protection |
| Llewel | bent nails |
| Curdle | blind milkmaids |
| Ooom | blood, power and strength |
| Satrum | bloodletting |
| Nwee | boredom and ennui |
| Hlinjassa | broken dreams, fleeting nightmares, and lucid dreaming |
| Nazarash | broken glass |
| Jabim | broken things |
| Rasoob | bronze |
| Maladmin | bureaucracy |
| Expiurge | chaos embound |
| Otto | cheese |
| Tonya | children’s teeth |
| Theb | chimney pots |
| Ooboora | clouds |
| Screbblo | cobblers and quality footwear |
| Lady of Cauldrons | cooking, food flavor |
| Fattu Feri | corpse candles and the tribes of the bog |
| Fluxalle | corroded cookware and brewing gone bad |
| Machuk | crafting and artifice (trickster) |
| Qinmeartha | creation |
| Diplodias | crop rot and poor harvests |
| Whisper Will | crossroads |
| Qualdoni | crossroads and the number four |
| Hexadron | cubes |
| Ellsbeth | damsels in distress |
| Galishma | darkness under bridges and the disposing of bodies |
| Kypselus | deals, bargains, and creeping corruptions |
| Palester Olhm | death by a thousand cuts |
| Jale God | delusion and dissolution |
| Obnomeht | dentistry and teeth-pulling |
| Okla | dentists and ivory carvers |
| Averted Onlooker | despair |
| Nebius | dismal fogs and dreary mists |
| Tsathoggua | divine slothfulness |
| Clavibor | doors and locks |
| Khaldranath | draft animals |
| Lord Downall | drains and floods |
| Pafflur | dreams and premonitions |
| Davy Jones | drowned sailors and watery doom |
| Dogasfos | drowning and the drowned |
| Zumbiboo | dust |
| Sorga | elements of sorrow |
| Yhoundeh | elk and elk-herding societies |
| Tuu Bih D ’turmin’d | empty spaces yet to be filled |
| Abondiance | ephemeral wealth |
| Flissik | evanescent ideas |
| Kalantos axe | executions |
| Apar misfortunate | explosions |
| Saint Vineria | eyes |
| Anwyn Wood | favors |
| Mosht A l Blopp | fetid pools |
| Churfaz | filth and cisterns |
| Skaal | fish out of water |
| Ariphas | fish scales and fishrot |
| Raselom | fitful and unpleasant rest |
| Iracaecus | flaming fury and blind rage |
| Meer-Smah | flatulence prevention |
| Berenedril | folly, stupidity, and blind luck |
| Tybesi-O | food, cuisine, and gluttony |
| Hoddypeak | fools, simpletons, and village idiots |
| Aglet | frayed ropes, cords, and strings |
| Grand Planar God | gateways and byways of the planes (guardians) |
| Khorissa | ghouls |
| Numathoth | gnostic revelations (former godlet) |
| Zyni Moe | godly knowledge (protector) |
| Pandantilus | gong farmers and muck rakers |
| E’rsae | gossip and rumour |
| Gor Nochri & Gar Nachrig | gossip, rumor, unfounded hearsay, and baseless speculation |
| Magrundi | guano and troglobitic vermin |
| Nocton Zython | hallucinations and sailors |
| Lord Barleycorn | harvest |
| Yggrd | hearth-tenders and meal-preparers |
| Chulg | heptagonal objects |
| Hymenphalia | hermaphroditic fertility |
| Heka-Kup | hiccups |
| Nardrea | hidden taxes and caches of time |
| Hweegarl | hitching posts |
| Beorl | honey, mead and beekeepers |
| Zezeke | hurled curses |
| Ollollde | hypnagogia |
| Bartleby | inactivity |
| Uroborialis | instinctual wisdom |
| Old Snicker | insults |
| Go’Ruush | intelligence and subterfuge (ogre god) |
| Sousroga | interstitial spaces |
| Zzyzz | irrational fears |
| Lumagog | itching and festering wounds |
| Jaiden | jade and jade carvers |
| Naaragiga | jellies and molds |
| Ungsi | knives |
| Sertetti | knives, scalpels, and methodical serial killers |
| Arolohnso | labyrinths and the undercity |
| Magpie Princess | magpies and pregnant mothers |
| Lady of L ost Angles | mathematical errors |
| Gremlyn | mechanical mischief |
| Mespilus | medlar trees and their fruit |
| Malnor | military discipline |
| Bokrug | millennial revenge |
| Diit’Wentii | minutiae |
| Mephassuros | mislaid and unanswered prayers |
| Ouk | missing limbs |
| Jöögengeld | mockery, sarcasm and schadenfreude |
| Urglu | mutations |
| Zeekil | needless pain |
| Xinrael | neglected orchards and rotting fruits |
| Wüdderhoot-hoot | nocturnal hunting |
| Choozwiz | non-magical crossroads |
| Aþ | oaths and wells |
| Ormix Prol | obscure words |
| Avirgiri | ordered decay |
| Saint Günter | osmotic knowledge and illiteracy |
| Patisseria | pastries and desserts |
| Tix-ka-tix | patience |
| Gyttjan | peat and mire |
| Deeker | petty revenge |
| Nanny Binx | physical and intellectual sustenance |
| Lacta Lacrima | pointless regret and remorse |
| Neco | political assassinations and contract killings |
| Lady of Rains | political corruption and indiscretion |
| Digiskleros | postmortem grooming |
| Cunnian | potential knowledge |
| Xumaltet | primal emotions and savage urges |
| Eraisho | protection from angry gamblers |
| Sant, Dewi | providence |
| Ogrimox | purulent skin conditions |
| Yyy | questions and riddles |
| Beast of Unbidden Challenges | random violence |
| Atra | recidivism, licentiousness, addiction, and uncontrolled urges |
| Loe-Hann | recidivism, licentiousness, addiction, and uncontrolled urges (sic) |
| Maharb’aal | remorse and guilt |
| Xoox | remote outhousing |
| Johnny Hopper | revelry and frog-kissing |
| Mal-laM | right angles, regular shapes, and symmetric patterns |
| Kilooloogung | rising smoke |
| Termas Tunneller | root cellars (hamster god) |
| Sant, Iltud | salvation |
| Thuf | secrets and unexplained winds |
| Sernis | secrets and whispers |
| Sa’hwo | secrets revealed (clam god) |
| Zodraz | seeds and toil |
| Yurm | self-injury |
| Insitor | serpents |
| Glyrea | serpents, venom and poisons |
| Dinud | shield-makers, and eggs, egg contents, and egg-layers |
| Zirkonia | shiny things |
| Zikcub | sickly animals |
| Neuph | silence |
| Verthish | single pips |
| Pilikke | skipping stones |
| Manidono | slackers, half-assed effort, and loose change |
| Pollycockle | small children and youngest siblings |
| Jus’enuf | small favors |
| Krythyle | snares and foot traps |
| Seppophis | snares, entanglements, webs and spiders |
| Fimtakar | spices known and unknown, spice traders, and sea travelers |
| Coprolias | spontaneous outbursts |
| Chelk & Jodj | stains (Chelk)/vandals (Jodj) |
| Adassec | stairs and ladders |
| Tsrura | starvation, illusion and time’s wintry end |
| Grandpa Toadflap | stashes and caches |
| Gôrgônmjôlk | steel and metallurgy |
| Divine Worm | stillborn infants |
| Meifer | streetlamp lighters |
| Grugzaret | subterranean darkness |
| Tlacotani | sudden inundation |
| Qzyma’a | synchronicity |
| Heolstor | the breath of dying men |
| Ixomant | the dark and fear of the dark |
| King Under the Mountain | the downtrodden and oppressed |
| Nyctalops | the lost/wayward, moonlight, and vampires |
| King Shroom | the mushroom kingdom |
| Gnunnug | the number seven |
| Moen Hepnir | the peaks, pinnacles and summits of mountains and glaciers |
| Moslammin | the shutting and closing of doors |
| Boden | the soil |
| Austura | the southeast wind |
| Ruslivia | time wasters, entertainments, and orderly amusements |
| Tau | tombs and cemetaries (gaurdian) (sic) |
| Yululun | tombs and cemetaries (protector) |
| Lubella | transformation |
| Turquoise Idol of Communion | transformation |
| Sant, Teilo | triumph over evil |
| Jessra | truces, armistices, and parleys |
| Bogrump Turnip Head | turnips |
| Nox | twilight |
| Kahladaht | undeath |
| Odxit | unexplained smells |
| Wicked Skein | unwelcome messages |
| Micicara | vendettas and murderers’ possessions |
| Kaldrabikkia | violence |
| Vexarus | virulent diseases and treason (mouse god) |
| Wart Mother | warts (frog god) |
| Kakanuawana | yam destitution |
| Lobon | youthful ambition and naïve hope |
Final Notes
This examination of Petty Gods confirms that alphabetic sorting of names is only useful if you already know what you're looking for. If you want to find the entry for the god Päkkaan, you flip past the Os and stop before you get to the Qs.
But if you don't know what you're looking for, an alphabetic list jumbles concepts, tones, and categories together. The only landmarks are names and art. If you're looking up a god by domain, then it doesn't matter if the page # referenced puts the gods in alphabetical order or not. Same for a d100 table, a cult/not cult index, etc, etc.
It's the default organizational method, but it might not be the optimal one.
In a weird way, PETTY GODS in total is a vast pantheon of things adventurers are concerned about or at least PCs in an old-school fantasy adventure campaign. Or maybe more specifically, "Things DMs in old-school fantasy adventure campaigns THINK the PCs should care about"
ReplyDeleteBut yeah, better to attempt to organize such things with an index of categories.
you only need the frog gods
ReplyDeleteall others surpurflous
Valid.
DeleteI wrote the entry for Machuk, and it’s very strange that a book containing a middling-bad piece of writing I did as a college freshman after reading the Wikipedia entry for Lord Dunsany still periodically circulates around the DIY D&D scene
ReplyDeleteI wrote Paleonumis and I just had the same thoughts.
DeleteMy problem with Petty Gods is that it is introducing into the campaign too powerful NPCs. With some of them players can think of good plans to deal with them. But too often it becomes GM telling players what to do.
ReplyDeleteWhen I read Petty Gods, the thing that struck me was just how many of them were vulnerable to mundane weapons, and could consequently be killed in a single round by a volley of arrows from a hundred-odd 0-level bowmen. It must be hard to maintain an aura of mythic grandeur when a well-drilled village militia can drop you in under a minute.
ReplyDeleteIt was a very bloated and uneven book, and the attempts at shock value got tiresome fast. Still, versions of Detriax, Khorissa, and the Cult of Llegh all ended up finding their way into my campaign, so it clearly wasn't a total waste of effort!
I remember the call being for "petty" gods in the sword-and-sorcery sense (or at least remember interpreting it that way): demons, aliens, and large monsters rather than Olympian deities; entities that high-level (or lucky/prepared mid-level) characters could have a showdown with.
DeleteOn the one hand, having a small god regard a forest of pikes and some light field artillery with alarm is interesting. On the other hand, the standard "immune to non-magic damage" doesn't seem sufficiently majestic.
DeleteI'm thinking of cribbing a system from an old Unknown Armies edition (maybe? I can't remember the details). A Demigod reduces all incoming damage to 0, and automatically resists all spells, unless the attacker:
•is truly convinced their attack will harm a Demigod.
•is wielding a sufficiently awe-inspiring weapon.
•has taken some form of ritual precaution.
Attackers must be utterly certain they are capable of striking and killing a divine being. Alcohol or other drugs may help. Awe-inspiring weapons should be storied, made of unique materials, or specially crafted for the purpose. Ritual precautions could include invoking a rival Demigod, performing a suitable ceremony, or declaring their name and heroic deeds.
I must admit that when I was writing my entries, I was more inspired by minor cults from Glorantha than the original "Unknown Gods" book. So, I was aiming more for "Black Fang" than "Mururlu." Maybe, one day, I'll go back and re-write my godlings* for RQ2.
DeleteI do wish I'd seen the Unknown Armies book to which you're referring. I would certainly have adapted those ideas. They're fab. Thanks for bringing them up.
----------
* Chel-Kloth, Gor Nochri and Gar Nachri, Little Lights, and Thuf. (Despite the text, Llewel was created by someone else -- Alexandra Ausborn, I believe.)
My ideal monster manual would be organized à la Zipf (with copious secondary indices). Starts with Normal Human, Bear, Goblin, etc; ends with Flumph. (Excising the flumph would be an insult to its majesty, but I shouldn't have to page past it to get to goblins!) Primary sort is use-at-table likelihood.
ReplyDeleteCould laying out gods work the same way? Start with harvest, war, the sea, etc, and at the very end come "the southeast wind", "thresholds and hinges", and "ants." Secondary indices are critical, too, as you say. Primary sort is propitiation-solves-my-problem likelihood. (An explicit "to whom should I burn this ox fat" flowchart would be nice, too - great idea.)
(Also, wow, Listing to Port is wonderful.)
The issue with the normal -> strange indexing isn't the ends, it's the middle. Is a Unicorn more weird than a Gryphon? Is it sufficiently clear that a reader, opening the book at Unicorn, knows which direction to flip to arrive at Gryphon?
DeleteI used 20 broad categories for the Monster Overhaul, then alphabetization within each category (with secondary indexes), which seems to work fairly well in testing.
Gods have the same problem. "By domain" is a useful index, but should it be the primary sorting method? It's important to think "why is the GM using this book? What are the entry points?"
For a given /setting/ book, by domain makes sense, but for a general book, it's less obvious. The "two whom should I burn this ox fat" is the "solve my problems" sheet I referred to in the post (as seen in Magical Industrial Revolution), and is another great entry point. It could be the primary sort method (Who To Invoke In Case of X), by chapter.
Great point about middle entries. A tiered sort does sound like a good solution.
DeleteI agree that "how will this book be used" should remain front-and-center. Have you collected data on how people use deity books? (I just idly page through them for cool bits - I don't think I've ever used an entry whole-cloth, and I certainly don't look through them at table.)
Related: I've always been frustrated that monster manuals put their secondary indices at the back (if they even have them, of course). Would you consider putting them in front (I guess I mean for both your monster and deity projects)? It's a little thing, but it could really improve usability.
I'm not sure how I'd collect useful statistical data, but I've got a decent spread of anecdotes and some local testing (i.e. hand someone a book, see what they do with it).
DeleteThere are a few potential issues with indices at the front of the book. Indices can run together (one list looks like any other list). Indices can sprawl. Nobody wants to read an index (nobody reads the introduction either). They want to skip to the content, and the content of a monster book is monsters. That's the hook. You can make an index interesting to read (I'm certainly going to try), but it's not the book's sole object.
Putting indices at the back also has issues. They're harder to find. They still run together. And, because of the way our brains work, people forget they are there.
I briefly looked into doing dictionary cuts (those little finger-fold things) on books, but it wouldn't work for the Monster Overhaul's short chapters.
Oh, now I'm quite curious about the anecdata you have on how people use books! The fractured nature of the hobby does make it very difficult to see how most people actually do a given thing.
DeleteRegarding index location, no question there are tradeoffs, as with every choice. I'll make one more argument in favor of the front, and then I'll give it a rest: if many people are going to skip the front matter anyway, you may not lose much of anything by making the front matter as useful as possible for those who do pay attention to it. Prominent, thoughtful secondary indices right next to the primary one (ToC) could make quite a compelling Unique Selling Point.
I appreciate you taking the time here. You've clearly given this a lot of thought.
Hah, it's not too scientific. I listen to what people (locally or online) have to say about new books. First impressions, plans, reviews, etc. Not just OSR or even RPG books, all sorts of books.
DeleteA recent example is the Shadowrun 6E core book. The publisher stated that they wanted to keep the book under 300 pages to reduce bloat and help focus. Very laudable. But they seem to have approached it in the same spirit as weight loss by amputation. Bits of the book appear to be missing. So it's interesting, as someone who doesn't really know the system, to watch what people note is missing, and to think about how that affects future design and streamlining.
We'll see about index locations. Aside from the standard "by chapter - in order" and "alphabetical" indices, I want to put a "every creature ever" index in the book. For creatures that aren't included, or have alternative names, the index will say "see X, pg. ##). E.g. Snowman, Abominable - See Yeti pg. ##. The size of that index will determine its location. Too long, and it becomes a boring wall of text at the front of the book.
Alternative indices, like the HD(NA) tree, monsters split into the Celestial Emporium categories, etc, might need to go in an appendix.
Fair & valid criticism all around. If we were doing it again or putting out a revised edition, we would have to incorporate these ideas (as well as correct too many typos that slipped past). Times being what they were and the way the project changed leads 3 times (James M., Gorgonmilk, Richard Le Blanc), it's a miracle it found its way to print at all. It truly was a labor of love.
ReplyDeleteAs one of the folks responsible for the final product, and the person with the longest list of writing credits in the author index, I will readily admit this is was an unwieldy project that gained bloat along the way because it was fun to go "oh yeah! It needs this!" when in fact it did not need several things, like the chapter on minions or cults or that goofy introductory letter I wrote. But now it is what it is for good or for ill.
But the main criticism here about thinking in terms of usability is extremely on point. We tried, but we could have tried better. Oh well. That Samuel Beckett quote comes to mind: "Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better."
No worries! A lot of the issues are baked into community projects. Can't fix them without changing the entire structure. The fact that it exists at all is impressive.
DeleteIt's useful to have books with missing entry tools and no obvious solutions (see comments above). Excellent learning experience!
It could be argued that an evocative implied setting is better than setting-agnostic, as users can simply modify references and concepts as needed. But then, if you're specifically trying to create a generic, universal tool then... well, good luck! I wouldn't want that task but I know you're good for it.
ReplyDeleteAh, but highly evocative bits can also conflict with an existing setting.
DeleteI'm slightly skeptical of "this is really cool and makes me want to use it" monster manuals. People say that and then, usually, don't use it. They spark the imagination and fade quickly.
Writing generic, universal content is difficult and there's always the risk it's too boring. It's a fine line.